Software Icon Standards

1. The most obvious problem is that the floppy disk is now almost a total
anachronism. Many computers don't ship with them anymore and soon you will
have users of computers who are completely unfamiliar with what one is.

2. With a database driven app like the one our company develops saving
changes to a record is never a file system operation as the floppy disk
would suggest. For example, it's just silly to have a Active Server Pages
application that commits it data to a SQL Server or Oracle database
represent that functionality with a floppy.

3. If you application offers both file system and database operations, use
of the floppy for the latter, as many applications do, conflates the meaning
of the operations is a way that is confusing.

The problem is that there seems to be no standard. What is really needed is
an industry leader to set a new standard, but who knows when or if that will
happen. You can create your own icon. However, your users will typically
revile it since it does not conform to what they are used to - a floppy.

Any information on how you or other developers have dealt with this issue
would be greatly appreciated, i.e., if there is a standard out there I am
unaware of, examples of icons you have used that have been successfully
adopted by users, etc...

Regards,
--
_______________________
John Lockhart
Product Manager
Elsinore Technologies, Inc.
www.elsitech.com

Have you thought of a rectangle with the words "Save Changes"
in it? Or is that too twentieth century?

--bks

Well, my kids asked me "what does it mean to 'dial' a phone," but we use
the term all the time.

For that matter, we manage with the term "record," even though I haven't
dusted off my collection of l.p.'s in a long time.

Some applications use an arrow pointing into a folder. That could mean
"save" in general.

This is the real problem: differentiating between two types of saving.

It may well be useful to remember that there is something called
"text" that can help actually tell the user what the
no-doubt-beautiful pictures mean (:-).

But, to directly address your question, no, I don't have any good images
around.

Craig

However, I think the real issue is that the lack of consistency with the
rest of the icons just indicates that you gave up trying on that particular
one, e.g., "I have no idea so I am just going to write it out". I would not
care so much if this were a homegrown app for in house use, but this is a
commercial software product with a fairly wide distribution.

I do appreciate the suggestion.

Best regards,

"Bradley K. Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Craig A. Finseth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

Do you have a webpage showing potential 16x16 pixel icons
that denote "save changes to record"?

--bks

Thanks,

news:[email protected]...

No I just want to see a 256 pixel icon that denotes
"save changed records" because I'm betting that you
can't produce one that is better than the word 'Save'.

--bks

Better yet, top this 16x16 pixel icon:
<http://www.panix.com/~bks/savicon.gif>

--bks

Well the point of the post was not to claim that I had a better alternative
at hand, but to inquire whether others had thought about the issue, found
solutions that had worked well for them, or even cared. I appreciate the
suggestion about using the the word "Save", but I simply believe there are
reasons why it is a non-starter for a tool bar icon that meets some standard
requirements. One example is internationalization. Its easy enough to swap
out resource files. However, I can't guarantee that the word "Save" in
another language would fit the form factor. Save is difficult enough in
English at 16x16. The German "Sparen Sie" would be a real pain.

On the comment in the previous post with the Emerson quote about foolish
consistency. Sometimes it is foolish, but customers do care about the
minutiae of a product and consequently it is my job to care about it as
well. Customers want apps where toolbar icons are iconic. If I we do
something else I am obligated to explain why in a way that makes sense to
the customer. It's not a tragedy if I have to use the floppy disk icon or
the icons we have used in the past, but I think there are some sound reasons
why those alternatives are less than ideal. My intent is not to one up
anyone, obsess, or nitpick. I just wanted to try to find some alternatives I
had never considered. Even if I don't find exactly what I am looking for the
process of trying to resolve it will help me understand the overall issue
that much better. I will definitely let you know if I find a good
alternative anywhere.

The example you provided just has "Sav". Is that by intent, or is there a
problem with the version I am looking at.

Thanks,

"Bradley K. Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

It certainly seems like a starter to me. I think that more Germans
would get the meaning of "SAV" on the tool bar than any other
16x16 icon. English is pretty widely known, especially among
the computer-literate.

When I (am forced to) use Word, I have set it so that I see
a row of words across the top of the window. Must I have a
polychromatic semiotic circus beaming out from every
application?

--bks

That's only "foolish consistency" though :)

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
Calum Benson
Made in Scotland, from Girders.

Right

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little
minds, adored by little statesmen and
philosophers and divines. With consistency a
great soul has simply nothing to do. --Ralph Waldo Emerson

--bks

news:[email protected]...

So what is the international icon for saving changes?

Internationalizing your product would allow for text
entry in another language, help in another language,
error messages in the local language, money and dates
to be displayed using local conventions, etc.

The icon for saving changes is only a trivial
component.

By the way, please don't "top post", i.e. place
your response above the text you're responding
to. That is not proper practice for this locale,
i.e. the Usenet.

--bks

My nephews where very astonished and interested when I came with a floppy disk.
They had never seen one before, in three years of computing.

Another icon with a folder symbol as the main item and some pixels around it!
How shall one differentiate between all those similar looking icons?
(in this case between those for open and close a file)

Yes, and words may be abbreviated. For example
- "Sv" as standard
- "SvR" and "SvF" for differentiating.

But most important are always context, grouping and sequence. If the user
knows he has a group of icons or abbreviations, he only need to differentiate
between them, and not between all icons on the screen.

Michael

--
bookkey, Bookmarks by Keywords.
With a new way to handle a large number of keywords.
http://www.bookkey.com

You forgot the hint that comes with nearly every icon.
The textual abbreviations for the "icons" may/should be translated in
the same context as their hints.

As well as the wrong translation of saving...

The answer to this particular problem is much simpler though:
eliminate the function. There is no user need for explicit saving.

Stephan Eggermont
Sensus, systems that make sense

We do this as well with a "Save on Document Close" option. For a number of
reasons we find it to be a subtle, but better alternative to to a full "lazy
read" interface. However, there are those who still carp about the icons
we use for insert, update, refresh, and delete. Thus I generally agree with
the suggestion.

Thanks,

The international standard traffic sign for "Railway crossing ahead"
shows a steam engine, which has been a total anachronism for some
40 years, but it still is the sign everybody uses and *is used to*.

The icon for "write a new mail" in Pegasus Mail shows a pen (in the
shape of a bird's feather) and a sheet of paper. This is even more
anachronistic, but obviolusly well understood.

--
Hubert Partl [email protected]
ZID BOKU Wien http://homepage.boku.ac.at/partl/
~~~~~~~~an~der~schoenen~blauen~Donau~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What are your statistics for proving your point that "the floppy disk is
now almost a total anachronism" ?

Personally I like customizable icons but another option is to
take out the disk icon and replace it with a "Backup" menu.
It could be in the Tools menu or on its own. In the drop
down menu, it could have 3 choices, "Backup to floppy"
"Backup to cdrom" and "Back up to other device".
Other device could be zip drive, tape drive, MP3 player
(they often can be used as portable hard drives and back
up drives) or a super disk drive.

> 3. If your application offers both file system and database operations,

Looking around at all my icons that I use daily, many of them
seem confusing at first. Like "attach" button uses a paper clip.
"Undo" has a curving arrow. "Paste" has a clipboard and a
little note paper in front of it. "Cut" has scissors. "Send" has
a piece of paper with a tack on it and a arrow pointing right.
These are all in Outlook Express, probably the most common
email program. People will be "used to" the disk icon for
probably many years, if they are still used to a paper clip.
(Which I haven't used in years, except to eject a floppy disk.)
(^:

How do you define "standard" ?

Personally I like having the choice to display text "next to"
or "below" the icons in a program. Then later when I get
more familiar with the icons and the layout, I switch to
"icons only" taskbar or iconbar.

Jon Melusky

-- Jeff

What's at stake, it seems, is clarity of communication: that the
symbol/icon indicate it's action with as little confusion as possible.
What's at stake is not whether not not a floppy/Save icon is confusing
for what it doesnt say (where the file is saved to in fact), but what
it might say without meaning to (that it's saved to a floppy when in
fact it's not).

That's where i think you have to sometimes rely on convention to make
up for the confusion. Most people understand that the icon's going to
be a holdover until some new icon (eg. the suggested Dbase cylinder)
becomes part of the visual vernacular.

til then just keep a stiff upper lip and forget about the floppy!

cheers,
adrian
http://www.gravity7.com

-- Jeff

------- original message -------

[email protected] (Adrian Chan) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

And the problem with conventions is that it takes them a long time to
develop, and a long time to decay. Do you go with what you have, or do
you update it and build the language's vocabulary? And if you update
the vocabulary, how do you do that *and* at the same time make sure
people can still speak it!

adrian

www.gravity7.com

[email protected] (Jeff Chapman) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> -- Jeff

That's a good one Jeff.

I just thought of a picture of a safe. I wonder if
more people in the world have a safe in their
house than computers ? A safe is "close" to
the spelling of "save" and it connotes saving
important documents and files. However,
in Paint Shop Pro, I can easily spot the
floppy disk button on the upper left as it
is dark in color compared to other buttons.
So a black or dark color safe that is done
in the same size as the floppy disk might
easily convert me over to using it (if it
suddenly was used in PSP).

JM

i find that the word "Save" works pretty well.

----
Garry Hodgson All I see are faces,
Senior Hacker a sea of faces
Software Innovation Services Surrounded by the memory
AT&T Labs of life before insanity.
[email protected] - Warren Haynes

>3. If you application offers both file system and database operations, use

>The problem is that there seems to be no standard. What is really needed is
>an industry leader to set a new standard, but who knows when or if that will
>happen. You can create your own icon. However, your users will typically
>revile it since it does not conform to what they are used to - a floppy.

>Regards,

Interesting question . . .

On the one hand, I approve of the floppy disc icon. It has been around
for so long that regardless of whether it is either accurate or
appropriate, users generally know what it means. Are we developing
user interfaces for our own satisfaction or for the benefit of the
user? If the floppy disc icon offends us for not being relevant today
but the users all know what it means then surely the user interface
should be considered successful.

On the other hand, maybe it's the question that needs to be analysed
and the issue of what symbol to put on an icon for 'saving' is
secondary.

I develop database systems and a common question that I get asked by
users is "How do I 'save' a new entry?". On enquiring why they're
asking they'll usually come up with something like "On system X I used
to have to press F2 to store the information that I had typed in.". I
see this as back-to-front. I assume that if someone enters information
into a database that they will want it to stay there - 'not storing'
(or canceling the input) should be a specific action, storing it
should be taken for granted. Frequently a system should be able to use
context to determine whether or not saving is required.

I try as much as possible to make the systems that I develop fit into
users existing ideas of how they [the user] already work. I try not to
make them revise their ideas of what they are doing when they get a
new system. They shouldn't have to learn new terminology that
describes what they have been doing for years just because the system
is new.

Should a user 'save' anything? If I write a note [with a pen on a
piece of paper] then put that note into a filing cabinet then did I
'save' the note? You could say that I 'saved' it for later reference,
but really I 'filed' it or 'stored' it. I think that the terms 'save'
and 'load' are throw backs to the early days of computing.

Just some idle thoughts at 1:30 in the morning. Back to the original
question. The only alternatives that I recall seeing have been the
green tick and the red cross. I don't really like these though.

Regards, Rhys

Yeah, that's actually pretty funny... after I read your reply I looked
up at the icons on my IE 6.0 toolbar, and sure enough, adjacent to the
"arrow in the round circle pointing to the left" is actually THE WORD
"Back". Okay, so maybe we don't need icons for things that we can
represent with short words (although I thought the whole point of
icons was to be language-neutral)??

-- Jeff

----------- original message -----------

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

The problem is, icons are usually not culture-neutral. IIRC some
web-browsers use "Stop Loading" icons that were represented with USA stop
signs. To anyone else in the world, that's just a red octagon.

Similarly the spell-check button in MS products is a tick over an "ABC". I
don't know what the spell check button is like in countries with a different
lexography.

Also, in countries which read right to left, are the back and forward
buttons reversed?

If you are only writing software for citizens of your own country, you can
probably get away with icons. However, if you have a wider userbase, why
not use just text (or place text with the icons)?

To my mind I prefer plain text - here's why.
1) Depending on the size of the icon, there can be more screen real-estate.
Usually this is the opposite, but this is outweighed by...
2) Never having to wait for a tool-tip or read the help file.
3) Very easy to internationalise without worrying about cultural
differences.

I was doing a usuability study the other day and I asked "What do you think
would happen if you pressed this button?"
The answer suprised me,
"I wouldn't. I know which buttons I need to use. If I press anything else
I might break it [the machine]."

Most of us here (I imagine) would either press a button to find out what it
did, or read the help file. It turns out that people who have been trained
in one aspect of a program usually wouldn't dream of expanding their
horizons. This is slightly reduced (AFAICS) when text is used rather than
icons.
However, a short description can be as unhelpful as a long one. Does
"Attach" mean "Attach this to something else" or "Attach something else to
this"?
The other problem is that it can be hard to differentiate between a
textbutton bar and a menu bar. The subtle underlining of menu bars is
probably not enough (and is turned off in WinXP!)

So, in conclusion (to a rather rambling post!) it's impossible to get an
icon to work as effectivly as a description, but text brings with it the
problems of space and mental-model clashing.

Terry

So true. Far too often localisation efforts ignore the necessity of
translating symbols.

Amusingly, that icon *would* work here, even though it would mean something
different. Any Swedish child who finds a red tick on her homework knows it
marks an error, so a ticked "ABC" would indicate a spelling mistake.

(In fact, it is a better icon here than where a tick is affirmative
(like in France and Germany): it is much more natural to mark misspelt
words than correctly written ones!)

not in German, where a safe is also called "ein Safe",
but to save is called "speichern" (literally: to store).

and what about other languages?

Icons should work *independently* from languages,
like the internationally standardised traffic signs.

*****************************************************
******* MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR! ***********************

Funny you mention this:

The octogon stop sign *is* an international standard.

However, the mailbox icon shows the typical mailbox-on-a-plug of
American houses-at-a-road and have *nothing* in common with
the yellow square boxes used for mail Germany and Austria,
or with the red cylindrical boxes used in Egland, etc.

And also, the phone icon usually shows an old, dial-around-a-circle phone,
not a modern mobile cellular phone.

which might as well mean "sort alphabetically" :-)

Good question, I would like to get an answer to that, and also to
the preferred sequence of lower-higher (or smaller-larger) buttons
from left-to-right (in our culture), I mean like the volume control
of radio or TV sets or the brightness control of monitors.

-- 16x16 and 24x24 dimensions are the form factor for the Win 32
-- Customers want apps where toolbar icons are iconic
-- Most important are context, grouping and sequence. If the user
knows he has a group of icons or abbreviations, he only needs to

-- The icon should indicate its action with as little confusion as
possible
-- Conventions take a long time to develop, and a long time to decay
-- Icons are usually not culture-neutral
-- The problem is that there seems to be no standard

Just as an aside, I did a search through my old favorites folder and
found this icon page, which is a riot...

http://www.coolarchive.com/icons.cfm

... not necessarily appropriate for a commercial product, but still
fun.

So what other "standards" would be appropriate? At one time I saw
some design recommendations regarding color, simplicity and 3-D
effect. How about the number of icons on a toolbar (do we really need
an icon for every textual menu item)?

-- Jeff